As it happens at least once every year to every team, my team last night did not have enough women to field a 4-3 male/female squad to put out on the field. We had two women show up and our opponent had maybe 5 women. Once we realized that we would not have any more females arriving to play, I asked our captain Andy to go over and talk to the other captain to see if we could play 5-2. A quick no was the response. As one of their teammates stated 'those are the rules'. Well, those rules suck; so we played down a person the whole game.
Granted, sometimes being down a person can give that team a tighter group,more focus, etc. and I have won several games being on the short side of the power play.
However, this is summer league.It is not a major tournament. I thought the main objective here was 'to have fun'. What is the big deal if we do not have enough women to change it to 5-2.

Marty, you asked the league(especially the men)what was the opposition to playing 4-3 when we were running low numbers on the women's registration side earlier this year.
I did not want to get into then and state reasons why I thought, if we did not have enough women to register, instead of cutting the number of teams down, just change the ratio from 4-3 to 5-2. But last night just reaffirms my belief that the 'rules' need to change.
I believe in my 21 years of playing summer league there was one game where my team did not have enough guys to field a full team. There have been many games were we had to play a person down because we did not have enough women to field a 4-3 team.
I suggested giving our opponent Burgundy the 'W' before we played them to just play 'a friendly' 5-2 game. But the competitive spirit in me said f*ck you Burgundy, we will beat you a man (women) down. Well , we lost by a few points.
I hope that the rules committee will look into this 4-3 gender ratio rule and come up with a change that allows teams to play a full 7 on 7.

Looking forward to playing Burgundy again with our 7 on the line.

I agree this is an issue and has been in the past. Most of the people who come to Summer League travel a good distance and I am sure want to play 7 on 7. It is a tough call I guess when one team has only 2 women like Charley's team and the other has enough. I would think if the other team has like 6+ women then it is not fair for the women to have to play 5/2 but if the other team has 5 or less women perhaps the captains can come to some kind of a agreement? Not sure if this is even allowed but I see where Charley is pissed. BTW two years ago our team (Drew's team) beat Bill Baer's team (sorry Bill) playing 4/1 vs their 4/3......that 2 2 1 zone was sick!!! We had only one women and plenty of men. Where does the WUDI board stand on this issue anyway? It seems a shame to play shorthanded. Are the captains allowed to come to an agreement to keep it 7 on 7 if both agree? What if one team has only two women and the other has only three. Does that team then make the other team play a person down and play their women savage? Seems crazy in summer league but something tells me some teams would do just that....that would be lame I think.

I think that if you have 11 women on your roster and only 2 show up, instead of ranting about the rules, maybe you should be asking either "why aren't more of our women showing up?" or "what can I do to get more of our women out to the games?"

I think that if the gender ratio rules are that offensive to you, then you should consider the Open league. Seriously. Coed means 4/3. The Open league never has to play a person down when women don't show.

I think that I almost never hear women complaining about the coed ratio rules. That's not to say that all women love the rules, but it's always the guys barking about how they suck and they're unfair and hey, why can't we just play 5/2? Why is that?

I think that 5/2 just isn't coed ultimate. There aren't enough women on the field and there are too many guys. The women who aren't stars often get lost in the offense. There are more guys to poach off on deep throws. It isn't considered coed ultimate anywhere.

I know that when our coed league was more relaxed about the gender ratio our women numbers declined steadily for several years in a row. Then we made it a hard 4/3 rule and our women numbers jumped by almost 20 women in the first year alone. Since then, and despite some hand-wringing during registration time, we've had increased numbers of women registering each year. I'm not going to assert a direct causation, but I will assert that the hard 4/3 rule makes the Coed Draft league a more hospitable place for women to want to play.

See you on July 19th.

As a member of the Orange team, I had the same experience last night. In the interest of full disclosure, we won our game playing down a woman, so perhaps that is a contributing factor to my position, but I disagree with Charley's position.

First, at no point did anyone on our team even mention the idea of playing 5-2 or offering up the 'W' to White. Second, there is much more to summer than "having fun," although we should all try to have as much fun as we can (and I should probably try more than most).

One thing that was positive for us as a team was the need to consider a wide variety of strategies, both offensively and defensively, while playing with only 6 against 7. Implementing those strategies, as well as evaluating and tweaking them during the game, generated thoughtful discussions that made it a positive learning and growing experience for our whole team. In turn, with so much to think about and evaluate, our sidelines were more involved than in previous games, which is also a plus. Finally, with our concern for our two women and their stamina, we were more thoughtful about using our timeouts judiciously, which is always a good thing.

Like Charley, I am a veteran of the old days when WSL seemed at times to be a coed league in name only. Coming back after 12 years, I was delighted to see the commitment to 4/3 as strong as it is. While I understand the frustration, I would suggest making an effort to recruit more women and encourage the women on your team to attend with regularity, rather than looking to forward to settling a score with a team that did nothing wrong.

Or you can keep swearing and tilting at windmills. Your call.

I think Charley's frustration was mostly that Burgundy would prefer to play a garbage game of ultimate with an advantage than play an even game.

Of course, they were certainly within their rights to press their advantage. It's just disappointing to those of us who were hoping to play a real game last night.

Captains have a lot of leeway in this league, so there's really no reason to think the rules need to change.

For the record, Chocolate had solid turnout for the previous three games. I'm pretty sure this was a scheduling fluke (as opposed to a worker's strike as Rick suggested).

Edit: turns out we never formally asked Burgundy about playing 5/2. so nevermind.

And I think my point is the assertion offered by Charley and now you, that the game you played last night was garbage ultimate and not a real game, is flawed. We had the same experience, and never felt it was anything other than a real game of ultimate.

And I agree with Ken. I've been on the low side of a 7/6 game plenty of times over the years and it is fun and exciting to win as the 6-person squad.

And, Tom, I wasn't suggesting that there was a worker strike, just simply that it would probably be more productive to reflect on why you only had 2 out of 11 women appear last night rather than channeling anger against well-reasoned and unambiguous rules and the team that adhered to them. If you and Charley want to blame Burgundy for playing 4/3 in a 4/3 league and rewarding our women for showing up last night, that's your prerogative.

As the captain of Burgandy, let me jump in for a sec: I certainly understand the frustrations. But, I was not asked about playing 5/2: We (the other captain and I) talked about the fact that the rules of the league are pretty strict on what should be done, and so we did it. If that was 'asking,' then I didn't get it.

I won't speak for my whole team, but I personally would rather not play 7 on 6 or 6 on 7. I felt the rules of the league told us what to do. The conversation with the other captain said the same. "ThomasBellin:" you can guess that we 'wanted to press our advantage' and things like that, but I know my team reasonably well, and we didn't have that discussion and that wasn't what we wanted. We'd much rather have a great game of ultimate and lose 15-13 then play crap and get a point in the standings of the league. That said, we also want to play 4/3 ultimate and we want to play by the rules.

I agree with Ken also in his comment. My version would be: everyone can play hard in a game of 6 on 7 and make it an intense, competitive, spirited game. I've been on both sides. I've also been on both sides when one team put their head down and said it wouldn't be fun. (I am -not- saying that's what happened here; I am saying it happens.) We'd all probably rather play a great game of 7/7.

-a

First Off I state I only read the first two posts as I'm in lazy mode/ I saw something I wanted to comment on in the first post.

First post extraction:
"However, this is summer league.It is not a major tournament. I thought the main objective here was 'to have fun'. What is the big deal if we do not have enough women to change it to 5-2."

Ok I'm with you summer league goals are at least in my mind, to provide competitive enjoyment with a focus on making players better in positive atmosphere.

However-
"I suggested giving our opponent Burgundy the 'W' before we played them to just play 'a friendly' 5-2 game. But the competitive spirit in me said f*ck you Burgundy, we will beat you a man (women) down."

I do not believe that one can state summer league is about having fun and then drop an F' bomb about how you want to win. Sure people show up to play 7 on 7, yea crap happens and people don't show up and sometimes you need to play down. If in your heart of heart you believe that summer league is about fun and games (up until playoffs) then give the forfiet and play 7 on 7. Otherwise realize that we all signed up knowing full well the rules. The rules are there so that in this case Adam doesn't have to be a dick, he simply is playing by the same rules we all have to abide by. So each captain make the choice now before the situation arises, what is more important the potential +1 in the Win column or playing 7 on 7, don't wait for the scenerio to come up; email each other and state this is where i stand on the issue, so next time you can start at 6:30 and worse case scenerio the other team gives you a lady or so two and you can play 4/3 the whole night til the sun goes down!

Pop pop,

Billy Olli

I too have been on the low side of a 7/6 (and I think one 7/5) game and won. And while I was pleased with my team then, I still would have preferred to play 7 on 7. I've been on the opposite end too.

Winning or losing is irrelevant to this conversation. The whole point of Charley's post is that there's more to summer league than winning.

Like I said, you had the right to insist on 4/3. It's just not what I would have done in your place. And in my opinion, I think it led to a less enjoyable game for everyone.

But reasonable people can disagree.

Edit: Burgundy was never asked about going 5/2. So nevermind.